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Is 'Fifty Dead Men Walking' (Film) really based on truth? 'No, its's as near to the truth as earth is to pluto,' says Martin McGartland.
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Is 'Fifty Dead Men Walking' really based on truth?
Martin McGartland, whose memoir forms the basis for 'Fifty Dead Men Walking', talks to Time Out about how he believes he's been inaccurately portrayed in the film
Last week saw the release of the film ‘Fifty Dead Men Walking’, a thriller adapted from the book of the same name by Martin McGartland, a working class Belfast boy who became both a respected member of the IRA and an informer for the British secret service. McGartland has been living in hiding for the past two decades, during which time he has been tracked down and shot twice. So it came as something of a surprise when he contacted the Time Out offices to discuss his reactions to the film which, he asserts, crucially misrepresents some episodes from his life story.
‘The best way I can explain it in basic, blunt terms, is it’s as near to the truth as Earth is to Pluto,’ McGartland insists. ‘If a film is loosely based on someone’s life story, how does the audience know what’s true and what’s fiction?’
McGartland cites various specific incidences where the film strays from his version of the truth. ‘I have never drank in my life, I have never smoked in my life and (actor) Jim Sturgess is in pubs getting pissed all the time and smoking cigarettes. All the stuff about me getting shot in Canada, I’ve never been to Canada in my life except for a brief holiday. I never lived there. And I certainly was not present when a suspected informer was interrogated and murdered. That made me so angry.’
But for McGartland, this isn’t just a case of creative licence. ‘Not only is there sympathy for the Republican movement (in the film), but the director, Kari Skogland, has done some kind of deal with the IRA whereby she has allowed them to be consultants and also, this is on record too, they’ve actually been on set when the film was being made, which is unheard of. How can you make a film about the IRA when they’re standing watching over your shoulder?’
Director Skogland angrily refutes McGartland’s claims, though she admits she did consult ex-IRA members when researching the film, and accepts that ex-Republicans were on set during shooting. ‘But so were the army!’ she argues. ‘They were there at the same time. Everyone was getting along, it was really very important, the army was there, the RUC was there, everyone wanted me to get it right, to have a very authentic view. While I would not want to suggest the IRA had any influence on the film because they didn’t, I certainly had to go to people to make sure that if I’m portraying them I’m not portraying them from some Hollywood, ill-conceived, stereotypical perspective.’
She also asserts that she offered McGartland an advisory role on the film and held numerous conversations with him during shooting. ‘I spent hours talking to him, and recognised that he had quite a distinct agenda. I felt because he had such a passionate perspective, his intention would have been to make it a political document, that was not the intention of the movie. This was not an agenda-oriented film. I listened and I was very respectful but at the same time I couldn’t let his voice change the dynamic of the picture that I knew was a truthful story of what it is to be an informer.’
Whatever the respective merits of their conflicting views, the incident highlights the responsibility filmmakers bear when telling real-life stories, particularly when their subjects are alive and eager to speak out. McGartland is concerned that the film will now be the only way people remember his contribution to what he views as a righteous cause.
‘I’ve been kidnapped by the IRA, jumped out a window to save my own life. I’ve been through the mill and back again and I accept all those consequences as a result of what I do… I didn’t want any control over the film, I just wanted them to do it in a fair way.’
Author: Tom Huddleston
http://www.timeout.com/film/features/show-feature/7273/is-fifty-dead-men-walking-really-based-on-truth.html
Thursday, November 12, 2009
Monday, September 28, 2009
Martin McGartland, in hiding from the IRA for 20 years, just called me for a correction.
Martin McGartland of Fifty Dead Men Walking calls for a correction
Posted in Film by Hank Sartin on August 31st, 2009 at 4:04 pm
As editor of the film section, I get some pretty unusual phone calls, like a reader asking about when a movie is coming to Chicago or a guy who made a movie in his basement assuming I’ll want to write an article about him.
But today’s phone call takes the cake. Martin McGartland, in hiding from the IRA for 20 years, just called me for a correction.
Who is he? McGartland grew up in Northern Ireland in an area where the IRA held a lot of power. McGartland was approached by British Intelligence, who knew that he was of interest to the IRA. (Note my cautious phrasing here.) McGartland joined the IRA as an infiltrator and relayed information to the British. Eventually, the IRA worked it out and McGartland had to go into hiding. He has been living in hiding from the IRA for 20 years. Attempts have been made on his life. He wrote a book about his time in the IRA called Fifty Dead Men Walking.
The book was made into a film, also called Fifty Dead Men Walking. I reviewed the film last week. My review, unfortunately, starts off thusly: “As IRA terrorist and British informant Martin McGartland, [Jim] Sturgess…” You can see the problem from Martin’s point of view; I’ve made it sound like he was a terrorist who became an informant. Wrong order of events. He went in under instructions from British Intelligence.
Therefore, Martin called me to ask for a correction. Um, holy shit.
He was very pleasant and polite (”I’m not trying to make any trouble for you, but you have to see this from my point of view…” he said several times) and I was apologetic. We chatted a bit, just long enough for him to restate his point a few times and mention that he’s trying to get another book published, so any public reference to him matters, especially when it makes him sound like he was a terrorist first. Boy, did I feel bad. So, our review online will be corrected, and I’ve asked for a correction on our letters page. And if you’re still checking back, Martin, my apologies for my unclear phrasing.
By the way, Martin also did a very interesting phone interview with our colleagues at Time Out London, in case you want to read his about larger issues with the film Fifty Dead Men Walking.
Link here;- http://www3.timeoutny.com/chicago/blog/out-and-about/2009/08/martin-mcgartland-of-fifty-dead-men-walking-calls-for-a-correction/
Posted in Film by Hank Sartin on August 31st, 2009 at 4:04 pm
As editor of the film section, I get some pretty unusual phone calls, like a reader asking about when a movie is coming to Chicago or a guy who made a movie in his basement assuming I’ll want to write an article about him.
But today’s phone call takes the cake. Martin McGartland, in hiding from the IRA for 20 years, just called me for a correction.
Who is he? McGartland grew up in Northern Ireland in an area where the IRA held a lot of power. McGartland was approached by British Intelligence, who knew that he was of interest to the IRA. (Note my cautious phrasing here.) McGartland joined the IRA as an infiltrator and relayed information to the British. Eventually, the IRA worked it out and McGartland had to go into hiding. He has been living in hiding from the IRA for 20 years. Attempts have been made on his life. He wrote a book about his time in the IRA called Fifty Dead Men Walking.
The book was made into a film, also called Fifty Dead Men Walking. I reviewed the film last week. My review, unfortunately, starts off thusly: “As IRA terrorist and British informant Martin McGartland, [Jim] Sturgess…” You can see the problem from Martin’s point of view; I’ve made it sound like he was a terrorist who became an informant. Wrong order of events. He went in under instructions from British Intelligence.
Therefore, Martin called me to ask for a correction. Um, holy shit.
He was very pleasant and polite (”I’m not trying to make any trouble for you, but you have to see this from my point of view…” he said several times) and I was apologetic. We chatted a bit, just long enough for him to restate his point a few times and mention that he’s trying to get another book published, so any public reference to him matters, especially when it makes him sound like he was a terrorist first. Boy, did I feel bad. So, our review online will be corrected, and I’ve asked for a correction on our letters page. And if you’re still checking back, Martin, my apologies for my unclear phrasing.
By the way, Martin also did a very interesting phone interview with our colleagues at Time Out London, in case you want to read his about larger issues with the film Fifty Dead Men Walking.
Link here;- http://www3.timeoutny.com/chicago/blog/out-and-about/2009/08/martin-mcgartland-of-fifty-dead-men-walking-calls-for-a-correction/
Sunday, May 10, 2009
Marty McGartland said the Sunday Tribune should be praised, "not treated like criminals", for putting the Real IRA's plans into the public domain.
May 10, 2009
Public and press rally to support Breen
'Sunday Tribune' Northern Editor Suzanne has received many accolades for refusing to reveal sources to the PSNI
Mick McCaffrey, Security Editor
Sunday Tribune journalist Suzanne Breen with Tribune solicitor Joe Rice at court on Friday The Sunday Tribune has received widespread support for its refusal to comply with PSNI demands that its Northern Editor hand over phones, computers, and other material relating to stories on the Real IRA.
Respected journalists, along with victims of paramilitary violence, have backed the newspaper's stance. The PSNI is seeking a court order under the terrorism act to seize the material that Suzanne Breen has refused to give detectives.
The case, which opened on Friday, will resume in Belfast on Tuesday. Breen potentially faces up to five years' imprisonment for not complying. The material relates to the Real IRA's claim of responsibility for murdering two British soldiers at Massereene, and an interview with an army council representative.
Channel 4 News' chief correspondent, Alex Thomson, who was threatened with legal action for not divulging sources to the Bloody Sunday inquiry, said he stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the Sunday Tribune.
"The danger in such approaches by the state is that the freedom of people to come forward and divulge information to reporters on the condition of anonymity is damaged," he said. "It might be the Real IRA this week – but, next week, it could be a nurse, school teacher or soldier disclosing grave wrong-doing at real risk to their career or safety."
The Sunday Times' Liam Clarke described the PSNI's action as "a cruel, expensive farce". He said if Breen complied, her life would be in danger and she would have to leave Northern Ireland.
Clarke criticised the PSNI chief constable: "If Hugh Orde wants to go to his new job as president of the Association of Chief Constables as the man who rolled back press freedom and jailed the mother of a young child for refusing to put her life on the line and ruin her career for him, then he is welcome to tilt at the windmill. But I doubt the courts will join him."
Last Friday, Orde's barrister, Tony McGleenan, asked that the PSNI's application be heard in closed session. The public, press, Breen, and her lawyers were cleared from the court.
Judge Tom Burgess said the PSNI's application was like "the Grand National course" and he would rule on Tuesday whether it had passed "the first hurdle". If so, Burgess will then set a date for a hearing where the Sunday Tribune can present its arguments. The newspaper's barrister Peter Girvan, instructed by solicitor Joe Rice, said the PSNI's application would be "vigorously opposed".
The PSNI letter demanding Breen's material came from Detective Chief Supt Derek Williamson, who is leading the Massereene investigation. Sunday World journalist Hugh Jordan said: "He seems to have got the wrong end of the stick. Suzanne Breen isn't his enemy. She was simply doing her job. Derek Williamson should wise-up."
According to the editor of the Belfast Telegraph, Martin Lindsay, "Ms Breen is upholding a valued journalistic tradition, where sources of information are regarded as sacrosanct, and deserves support for her stance."
The Daily Mirror's Northern Ireland editor Gerry Millar said: "If this case is lost, it will endanger every journalist seeking to do their job. Society will lose out."
Willie Frazer of IRA victims' group Fair said that although the people he represents suffered at the hands of republican terrorists, he fully supports Breen's stance. "It isn't up to her to do the police's job. The PSNI should get off their backsides and chase terrorists, not harass journalists. Is their intelligence so bad they want journalists to tell them what's happening?"
Writing in Index on Censorship, ex-IRA prisoner and author Anthony McIntyre, said: "Journalists who ask the most difficult questions are those who receive the most hassle from the state and its security apparatus."
Ex-IRA informer Marty McGartland said the Sunday Tribune should be praised, "not treated like criminals", for putting the Real IRA's plans into the public domain.
Last week, Breen wrote of how the UDA had boasted to her in 1993 about murdering Catholic father-of-six, Mickey Edwards, as he slept – yet she had never been contacted by police over that.
Edwards' young children had run into the bedroom, begging him not to die. Last week, Edwards's son Michael contacted the Sunday Tribune to support Breen.
In a moving statement, he said that even if Breen knew the names of those who murdered his father, he didn't expect her to reveal them: "I commend the bravery of Suzanne Breen to interview loyalists at a time when they made no distinction between killing Catholic men or women. It's dangerous enough reporting in the North without unnecessary police actions."
Link; http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/may/10/public-and-press-rally-to-support-breen/
Public and press rally to support Breen
'Sunday Tribune' Northern Editor Suzanne has received many accolades for refusing to reveal sources to the PSNI
Mick McCaffrey, Security Editor
Sunday Tribune journalist Suzanne Breen with Tribune solicitor Joe Rice at court on Friday The Sunday Tribune has received widespread support for its refusal to comply with PSNI demands that its Northern Editor hand over phones, computers, and other material relating to stories on the Real IRA.
Respected journalists, along with victims of paramilitary violence, have backed the newspaper's stance. The PSNI is seeking a court order under the terrorism act to seize the material that Suzanne Breen has refused to give detectives.
The case, which opened on Friday, will resume in Belfast on Tuesday. Breen potentially faces up to five years' imprisonment for not complying. The material relates to the Real IRA's claim of responsibility for murdering two British soldiers at Massereene, and an interview with an army council representative.
Channel 4 News' chief correspondent, Alex Thomson, who was threatened with legal action for not divulging sources to the Bloody Sunday inquiry, said he stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the Sunday Tribune.
"The danger in such approaches by the state is that the freedom of people to come forward and divulge information to reporters on the condition of anonymity is damaged," he said. "It might be the Real IRA this week – but, next week, it could be a nurse, school teacher or soldier disclosing grave wrong-doing at real risk to their career or safety."
The Sunday Times' Liam Clarke described the PSNI's action as "a cruel, expensive farce". He said if Breen complied, her life would be in danger and she would have to leave Northern Ireland.
Clarke criticised the PSNI chief constable: "If Hugh Orde wants to go to his new job as president of the Association of Chief Constables as the man who rolled back press freedom and jailed the mother of a young child for refusing to put her life on the line and ruin her career for him, then he is welcome to tilt at the windmill. But I doubt the courts will join him."
Last Friday, Orde's barrister, Tony McGleenan, asked that the PSNI's application be heard in closed session. The public, press, Breen, and her lawyers were cleared from the court.
Judge Tom Burgess said the PSNI's application was like "the Grand National course" and he would rule on Tuesday whether it had passed "the first hurdle". If so, Burgess will then set a date for a hearing where the Sunday Tribune can present its arguments. The newspaper's barrister Peter Girvan, instructed by solicitor Joe Rice, said the PSNI's application would be "vigorously opposed".
The PSNI letter demanding Breen's material came from Detective Chief Supt Derek Williamson, who is leading the Massereene investigation. Sunday World journalist Hugh Jordan said: "He seems to have got the wrong end of the stick. Suzanne Breen isn't his enemy. She was simply doing her job. Derek Williamson should wise-up."
According to the editor of the Belfast Telegraph, Martin Lindsay, "Ms Breen is upholding a valued journalistic tradition, where sources of information are regarded as sacrosanct, and deserves support for her stance."
The Daily Mirror's Northern Ireland editor Gerry Millar said: "If this case is lost, it will endanger every journalist seeking to do their job. Society will lose out."
Willie Frazer of IRA victims' group Fair said that although the people he represents suffered at the hands of republican terrorists, he fully supports Breen's stance. "It isn't up to her to do the police's job. The PSNI should get off their backsides and chase terrorists, not harass journalists. Is their intelligence so bad they want journalists to tell them what's happening?"
Writing in Index on Censorship, ex-IRA prisoner and author Anthony McIntyre, said: "Journalists who ask the most difficult questions are those who receive the most hassle from the state and its security apparatus."
Ex-IRA informer Marty McGartland said the Sunday Tribune should be praised, "not treated like criminals", for putting the Real IRA's plans into the public domain.
Last week, Breen wrote of how the UDA had boasted to her in 1993 about murdering Catholic father-of-six, Mickey Edwards, as he slept – yet she had never been contacted by police over that.
Edwards' young children had run into the bedroom, begging him not to die. Last week, Edwards's son Michael contacted the Sunday Tribune to support Breen.
In a moving statement, he said that even if Breen knew the names of those who murdered his father, he didn't expect her to reveal them: "I commend the bravery of Suzanne Breen to interview loyalists at a time when they made no distinction between killing Catholic men or women. It's dangerous enough reporting in the North without unnecessary police actions."
Link; http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/may/10/public-and-press-rally-to-support-breen/
Sunday, May 3, 2009
How Rose (I would have joined the IRA) McGowan; The IRA conned Kari Skogland, Jim Sturgess and Rose.
How Rose (I would have joined the IRA) McGowan; The IRA conned Kari Skogland, Jim Sturgess and Rose.
A director has distanced herself from comments about supporting the IRA made by an actress who stars in her latest film.
Rose McGowan sparked controversy with comments made at the world premiere of Fifty Dead Men Walking, a film based on the memoirs of Martin McGartland, an RUC Special Branch agent who infiltrated the IRA in the 1980s.
The 35-year-old American actress, whose father is Irish, said at a press conference at the Toronto Film Festival last week: ``I imagine, had I grown up in Belfast, I would 100% have been in the IRA.
"My heart just broke for the cause," she told a news conference before the film's world premiere at the Toronto Film Festival. "I imagine, had I grown up in Belfast, I would 100 per cent have been in the IRA," she said. "Violence is not to be played out daily and provide an answer to problems, but I understand it."
McGowan plays an IRA operative in the film, which stars Sir Ben Kingsley and Jim Sturgess.
The producers and director of the film attempted to limit the damage caused by her comments by publicly expressing their disapproval.
There are concerns that the comments could damage the film, presently being sold around the world and to be released in the UK next month.
In a statement, they said they regret any ``distress that this (the comments) may have caused to people of Northern Ireland and particularly those who were victims of or caught up in the shocking events that existed during the Troubles.''
The comments ``were not shared, nor endorsed, by anybody associated with the production or creative elements of the film'', they said.
Director Kari Skogland said: "Rose's personal opinions of Northern Ireland do not reflect the perspective of the film in any way.
"Our goal was to present an even, non-judgmental point of view so the audience could follow the path of an informer with empathy no matter what the politics.
"We are all very proud of this thought-provoking film and are deeply indebted to the city of Belfast and Northern Ireland for giving us such a warm welcome whilst filming."
Unionist politicians have criticised McGowan for her ``foolish and offensive'' comments.
McGowan has appeared in Quentin Tarantino's Death Proof and the horror film Scream, and was previously engaged to Marilyn Manson.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/film-tv/news/director-apologises-for-rose-mcgowans-ira-comments-13978481.html?startindex=20
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IRA were some of the nicest people that I ever met, says actor
By Maureen Coleman
Friday, 27 February 2009
Up and coming young actor Jim Sturgess — who stars in the new informer movie 50 Dead Men Walking — has spoken about the “human side” of the IRA and how some of its members were “the nicest people” he’d ever met.
The Surrey-born actor, who plays double agent Martin McGartland in the movie, told how he was introduced to former members of the IRA, who acted as “chaperones” while filming took place in Belfast.
And he claimed they were “passionate people”, who weren’t just caught up in the IRA “for violence’s sake”.
Sturgess was speaking to Empire movie magazine ahead of the general release of 50 Dead Men Walking in April. The movie will also close the ninth Jameson Belfast Film Festival.
His comments about the movie are likely to cause controversy. Hollywood actress Rose McGowan, who stars alongside Sturgess, came under fire last year when she said she would have joined the IRA, had she grown up in Belfast.
Sturgess said he didn’t know what to expect when he first came to Belfast to shoot 50 Dead men Walking.
“It was confusing for me, because I met what I believed were these thuggish terrorists from Belfast that blew places up in England — the IRA was presented to me like that — so when I met these people, and saw the human side, they were some of the nicest people I’d ever met.
“So instantly you start trying to understand what it all meant for them, that they weren’t just doing it for violence’s sake. Some of them were genuinely nice, passionate people.
“And it was a thrilling undercover ride, really. We would go into these pubs that we would never normally be allowed to hang out in, but because of who we were with we were vouched for. I would definitely not do that as an average citizen visiting Belfast. So it was exciting, becoming part of the city — or at least pretending to. Soaking it all in.”
Sturgess, who also stars in Heartless, 21 and The Other Boleyn Girl and has been hailed as “the new James McAvoy” said he wasn’t aware of the dangers facing him until filming had ended.
“We were given kind of chaperones, these people who looked after us, who were ex-members of the IRA and we basically stayed with them for two weeks before we started,” he said.
“It was kept under wraps because, in the areas we were in, he (Martin McGartland) is not a popular man. But even so, afterwards I learned there were times when I was probably in more danger than I realised. I was blissfully unaware, but I think the producers were having mini heart attacks.”
50 Dead Men Walking is based on the autobiographical book of the same name by Martin McGartland, who was recruited by the British police to infiltrate the IRA.
He was unmasked by the IRA in 1991 and narrowly escaped death when he leapt from a third floor window in a block of flats.
In 1999 the IRA tracked him down to a town in Whitley Bay and shot him six times, but failed to kill him. McGartland remains in hiding.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/film-tv/news/ira-were-some-of-the-nicest-people-that-i-ever-met-says-actor-14207086.html
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Martin McGartland says: "I refused to be connected or involved with the film nor the film-makers. I had been informed that those connected were too friendly with IRA members, going to parties with IRA members, drinking in IRA pubs etc. The IRA had a say in what way film was made, they carried out security. I took legal action against film-makers and the result was that changes were made to the film, disclimers added to begining and ending stating that I was not connected or involved with the film. It also make clear that the film was NOT True account of what took place. I can say that the film was 99% fiction. I also refused an offer to be a paid consultant on the film. The film-makers also paid me damages, compensation. I understand that Kari Skogland was ordered to do so and I was informed that those funding the film were not at all happy with her."
A director has distanced herself from comments about supporting the IRA made by an actress who stars in her latest film.
Rose McGowan sparked controversy with comments made at the world premiere of Fifty Dead Men Walking, a film based on the memoirs of Martin McGartland, an RUC Special Branch agent who infiltrated the IRA in the 1980s.
The 35-year-old American actress, whose father is Irish, said at a press conference at the Toronto Film Festival last week: ``I imagine, had I grown up in Belfast, I would 100% have been in the IRA.
"My heart just broke for the cause," she told a news conference before the film's world premiere at the Toronto Film Festival. "I imagine, had I grown up in Belfast, I would 100 per cent have been in the IRA," she said. "Violence is not to be played out daily and provide an answer to problems, but I understand it."
McGowan plays an IRA operative in the film, which stars Sir Ben Kingsley and Jim Sturgess.
The producers and director of the film attempted to limit the damage caused by her comments by publicly expressing their disapproval.
There are concerns that the comments could damage the film, presently being sold around the world and to be released in the UK next month.
In a statement, they said they regret any ``distress that this (the comments) may have caused to people of Northern Ireland and particularly those who were victims of or caught up in the shocking events that existed during the Troubles.''
The comments ``were not shared, nor endorsed, by anybody associated with the production or creative elements of the film'', they said.
Director Kari Skogland said: "Rose's personal opinions of Northern Ireland do not reflect the perspective of the film in any way.
"Our goal was to present an even, non-judgmental point of view so the audience could follow the path of an informer with empathy no matter what the politics.
"We are all very proud of this thought-provoking film and are deeply indebted to the city of Belfast and Northern Ireland for giving us such a warm welcome whilst filming."
Unionist politicians have criticised McGowan for her ``foolish and offensive'' comments.
McGowan has appeared in Quentin Tarantino's Death Proof and the horror film Scream, and was previously engaged to Marilyn Manson.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/film-tv/news/director-apologises-for-rose-mcgowans-ira-comments-13978481.html?startindex=20
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IRA were some of the nicest people that I ever met, says actor
By Maureen Coleman
Friday, 27 February 2009
Up and coming young actor Jim Sturgess — who stars in the new informer movie 50 Dead Men Walking — has spoken about the “human side” of the IRA and how some of its members were “the nicest people” he’d ever met.
The Surrey-born actor, who plays double agent Martin McGartland in the movie, told how he was introduced to former members of the IRA, who acted as “chaperones” while filming took place in Belfast.
And he claimed they were “passionate people”, who weren’t just caught up in the IRA “for violence’s sake”.
Sturgess was speaking to Empire movie magazine ahead of the general release of 50 Dead Men Walking in April. The movie will also close the ninth Jameson Belfast Film Festival.
His comments about the movie are likely to cause controversy. Hollywood actress Rose McGowan, who stars alongside Sturgess, came under fire last year when she said she would have joined the IRA, had she grown up in Belfast.
Sturgess said he didn’t know what to expect when he first came to Belfast to shoot 50 Dead men Walking.
“It was confusing for me, because I met what I believed were these thuggish terrorists from Belfast that blew places up in England — the IRA was presented to me like that — so when I met these people, and saw the human side, they were some of the nicest people I’d ever met.
“So instantly you start trying to understand what it all meant for them, that they weren’t just doing it for violence’s sake. Some of them were genuinely nice, passionate people.
“And it was a thrilling undercover ride, really. We would go into these pubs that we would never normally be allowed to hang out in, but because of who we were with we were vouched for. I would definitely not do that as an average citizen visiting Belfast. So it was exciting, becoming part of the city — or at least pretending to. Soaking it all in.”
Sturgess, who also stars in Heartless, 21 and The Other Boleyn Girl and has been hailed as “the new James McAvoy” said he wasn’t aware of the dangers facing him until filming had ended.
“We were given kind of chaperones, these people who looked after us, who were ex-members of the IRA and we basically stayed with them for two weeks before we started,” he said.
“It was kept under wraps because, in the areas we were in, he (Martin McGartland) is not a popular man. But even so, afterwards I learned there were times when I was probably in more danger than I realised. I was blissfully unaware, but I think the producers were having mini heart attacks.”
50 Dead Men Walking is based on the autobiographical book of the same name by Martin McGartland, who was recruited by the British police to infiltrate the IRA.
He was unmasked by the IRA in 1991 and narrowly escaped death when he leapt from a third floor window in a block of flats.
In 1999 the IRA tracked him down to a town in Whitley Bay and shot him six times, but failed to kill him. McGartland remains in hiding.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/film-tv/news/ira-were-some-of-the-nicest-people-that-i-ever-met-says-actor-14207086.html
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Martin McGartland says: "I refused to be connected or involved with the film nor the film-makers. I had been informed that those connected were too friendly with IRA members, going to parties with IRA members, drinking in IRA pubs etc. The IRA had a say in what way film was made, they carried out security. I took legal action against film-makers and the result was that changes were made to the film, disclimers added to begining and ending stating that I was not connected or involved with the film. It also make clear that the film was NOT True account of what took place. I can say that the film was 99% fiction. I also refused an offer to be a paid consultant on the film. The film-makers also paid me damages, compensation. I understand that Kari Skogland was ordered to do so and I was informed that those funding the film were not at all happy with her."
Thursday, April 9, 2009
Ronan Bennett - Martin McGartland Letter;- I joined the IRA only to infiltrate it ...
Marty said;- I joined the IRA only to infiltrate it, acted consistently to combat terrorism and save life, and did not betray my friends or my beliefs.
======================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================
Martin McGartland Letter;
Dead Men Walking
The Guardian, Wednesday 3 June 2009
When reviewing "Fifty Dead Men Walking" (The trouble with the Troubles, Film & Media, April 3), the film loosely based on my life as an RUC agent, Ronan Bennett discussed the cultural and political significance of informers, who, he observed, have rarely been viewed sympathetically on screen or - when he refers to criminals he met in the Old Bailey - in real life. Mr Bennett may have been commissioned on the strength of his many writings about Ireland but it would be understandable if his negative personal experience of the RUC, in that he was wrongly accused of murdering an RUC officer in the 1970s, had left its mark on him. While I have every sympathy for anyone who is mistakenly charged, I believe it would have been relevant here for the Guardian, or Mr Bennett himself, to point out this background either in the course of the review or as a footnote.
I can be distinguished from the fictional police informers, including those Ronan Bennett says were depicted in the film Battle of Algiers and the novel The Informer and to whom he compares me in this review. Unlike them, I joined the IRA only to infiltrate it, acted consistently to combat terrorism and save life, and did not betray my friends or my beliefs. On the contrary I am proud of my undercover role inside the Provisional IRA as a police agent between 1987 and 1991.
Martin McGartland
Address withheld
Link;- http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/jun/03/letter-dead-men-walking
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You can read the Ronan Bennett review of Fifty Dead Men Walking (The Film)
here;- http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/200/apr/03/fifty-dead-men-walking
However, before you do you need to be aware that the film (Fifty Dead Men Walking) is in no way a true account of what took place, my life story. The film is 99% fiction. It was made with the help of IRA members. The IRA we paid to consult on film, carry out security etc. The film is as near to the Truth as Earth is to Pluto. I took legal action against film company, Kari Skogland. The result was that many last minute changes were made to the film. My Solicitor (Thank You Paul Tweed, Belfast) ensured that disclaimers were added to the start and the ending of the film. Those disclaimers make clear that the film is NOT a true account of my book (Fifty Dead Men Walking) nor of my life story. It is also made very clear that I was NOT in anyway connected or involved in the making of the film. I was also paid damages, compensation by film-makers. I also wish to place on the record that I refused an offer from film company to be a paid consultant on the film. I was not willing to be involved with a film when IRA were connected to it.
As for Mr Ronan Bennett - he is not the best place person to be writing such a review. Here are just some of the information I found on line about him;
1. In 1974 while at school Bennett was convicted of murdering Inspector William Elliott, a 49 year-old police officer in the Royal Ulster Constabulary during an Official IRA bank robbery at the Ulster Bank in The Diamond shopping area at Rathcoole, close to his Merville Garden Village home, on 6 September 1974. His conviction was overturned on appeal in 1975 and Bennett was released from Long Kesh prison near Lisburn, Co. Antrim. Later Bennett apparently displayed a sympathy towards the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), an unpredictable Official IRA off-shoot terrorist group, which made its name after it murdered Margaret Thatcher's Northern Ireland advisor Airey Neave in 1979.
Link re above; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Bennett
2. Bennett then moved to London. In 1978 he was arrested for conspiracy to cause explosions and spent 16 months in prison on remand. Bennett conducted his own defence, and he and his co-defendants were acquitted in 1979. He studied history at King's College London receiving a first class honours degree, and later completed his Ph.D. at the college in 1987.
Link re above: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Bennett
3. AN Irish republican sympathiser, commissioned by the BBC to write a definitive history of the partition of Ireland, has defended the film against claims that it is "hopelessly one-sided".
Link here; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1376477/Republican-writes-BBCs-Irish-drama.html
4. Bennett also stated; 'I would not turn in the bombers'.
Link here; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1369141/I-would-not-turn-in-the-bombers.html
5. Bennett denounced the former IRA man Sean O'Callaghan for informing against his erstwhile terrorist colleagues.
Link here; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1369141/I-would-not-turn-in-the-bombers.html
6. Mr Bennett, who is writing a script with Alan Rusbridger, the editor of The Guardian, came to prominence in the late Eighties, when he was refused a Commons pass to work for Labour Left-winger Jeremy Corbyn.
Link here; Mr Bennett, who is writing a script with Alan Rusbridger, the editor of The Guardian, came to prominence in the late Eighties, when he was refused a Commons pass to work for Labour Left-winger Jeremy Corbyn.
Bennett once wrote;- "I can tell them this: it does not work if the writer is blinkered, one-sided or tries to beat his audience over the head with a political message. I am not interested in writing placard drama, I am not interested in watching it. Contrary to what they have been saying, Rebel Heart has its own balance."
Link here; http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/dec/03/northernireland.theobserver
Each, ever report or review I have read by Mr Bennett are all; "Blinkered, one-sided, tries to beat his audience over head with political message ..."
One other important point I want to place on the record. On Sunday the 29th march 2009 the Sunday Times published the following; http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article5982263.ece under the headline; Martin McGartland police agent in IRA , disowns Fifty Dead Men Walking
"Martin McGartland disowns Fifty Dead Men Walking" However, 5 days later, on Friday 3 April 2009, Ronan Bennett published his review on Fifty Dead Men Walking (The Film) which he would have known that; (a) I was not involved nor connected with the film. (b) I had stated in public that the film was as Near to the Truth as Earth was to Pluto. (c) The Sunday Times only days before reported that; "Martin McGartland police agent in IRA , disowns Fifty Dead Men Walking." and Sunday Times also made clear; "after McGartland watched the film, he demanded, and got, several last-minute changes. For instance, a voiceover by Sir Ben Kingsley, who plays McGartland’s RUC Special Branch handler, sets the historical context and describes McGartland as “his own man”. A number of scenes were cut or voiced over, and disclaimers were inserted at the beginning and end to say that key events and personalities had been changed. .... He contends that the movie is fundamentally a lie that misrepresents his career and his motivation. He believes that if Kari Skogland, the director, had stuck closer to the account he gave in his book and in a BBC documentary, then she would have had a better film."
The Bennett Review; http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/apr/03/fifty-dead-men-walking
======================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================
Martin McGartland Letter;
Dead Men Walking
The Guardian, Wednesday 3 June 2009
When reviewing "Fifty Dead Men Walking" (The trouble with the Troubles, Film & Media, April 3), the film loosely based on my life as an RUC agent, Ronan Bennett discussed the cultural and political significance of informers, who, he observed, have rarely been viewed sympathetically on screen or - when he refers to criminals he met in the Old Bailey - in real life. Mr Bennett may have been commissioned on the strength of his many writings about Ireland but it would be understandable if his negative personal experience of the RUC, in that he was wrongly accused of murdering an RUC officer in the 1970s, had left its mark on him. While I have every sympathy for anyone who is mistakenly charged, I believe it would have been relevant here for the Guardian, or Mr Bennett himself, to point out this background either in the course of the review or as a footnote.
I can be distinguished from the fictional police informers, including those Ronan Bennett says were depicted in the film Battle of Algiers and the novel The Informer and to whom he compares me in this review. Unlike them, I joined the IRA only to infiltrate it, acted consistently to combat terrorism and save life, and did not betray my friends or my beliefs. On the contrary I am proud of my undercover role inside the Provisional IRA as a police agent between 1987 and 1991.
Martin McGartland
Address withheld
Link;- http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/jun/03/letter-dead-men-walking
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can read the Ronan Bennett review of Fifty Dead Men Walking (The Film)
here;- http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/200/apr/03/fifty-dead-men-walking
However, before you do you need to be aware that the film (Fifty Dead Men Walking) is in no way a true account of what took place, my life story. The film is 99% fiction. It was made with the help of IRA members. The IRA we paid to consult on film, carry out security etc. The film is as near to the Truth as Earth is to Pluto. I took legal action against film company, Kari Skogland. The result was that many last minute changes were made to the film. My Solicitor (Thank You Paul Tweed, Belfast) ensured that disclaimers were added to the start and the ending of the film. Those disclaimers make clear that the film is NOT a true account of my book (Fifty Dead Men Walking) nor of my life story. It is also made very clear that I was NOT in anyway connected or involved in the making of the film. I was also paid damages, compensation by film-makers. I also wish to place on the record that I refused an offer from film company to be a paid consultant on the film. I was not willing to be involved with a film when IRA were connected to it.
As for Mr Ronan Bennett - he is not the best place person to be writing such a review. Here are just some of the information I found on line about him;
1. In 1974 while at school Bennett was convicted of murdering Inspector William Elliott, a 49 year-old police officer in the Royal Ulster Constabulary during an Official IRA bank robbery at the Ulster Bank in The Diamond shopping area at Rathcoole, close to his Merville Garden Village home, on 6 September 1974. His conviction was overturned on appeal in 1975 and Bennett was released from Long Kesh prison near Lisburn, Co. Antrim. Later Bennett apparently displayed a sympathy towards the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), an unpredictable Official IRA off-shoot terrorist group, which made its name after it murdered Margaret Thatcher's Northern Ireland advisor Airey Neave in 1979.
Link re above; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Bennett
2. Bennett then moved to London. In 1978 he was arrested for conspiracy to cause explosions and spent 16 months in prison on remand. Bennett conducted his own defence, and he and his co-defendants were acquitted in 1979. He studied history at King's College London receiving a first class honours degree, and later completed his Ph.D. at the college in 1987.
Link re above: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_Bennett
3. AN Irish republican sympathiser, commissioned by the BBC to write a definitive history of the partition of Ireland, has defended the film against claims that it is "hopelessly one-sided".
Link here; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1376477/Republican-writes-BBCs-Irish-drama.html
4. Bennett also stated; 'I would not turn in the bombers'.
Link here; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1369141/I-would-not-turn-in-the-bombers.html
5. Bennett denounced the former IRA man Sean O'Callaghan for informing against his erstwhile terrorist colleagues.
Link here; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1369141/I-would-not-turn-in-the-bombers.html
6. Mr Bennett, who is writing a script with Alan Rusbridger, the editor of The Guardian, came to prominence in the late Eighties, when he was refused a Commons pass to work for Labour Left-winger Jeremy Corbyn.
Link here; Mr Bennett, who is writing a script with Alan Rusbridger, the editor of The Guardian, came to prominence in the late Eighties, when he was refused a Commons pass to work for Labour Left-winger Jeremy Corbyn.
Bennett once wrote;- "I can tell them this: it does not work if the writer is blinkered, one-sided or tries to beat his audience over the head with a political message. I am not interested in writing placard drama, I am not interested in watching it. Contrary to what they have been saying, Rebel Heart has its own balance."
Link here; http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/dec/03/northernireland.theobserver
Each, ever report or review I have read by Mr Bennett are all; "Blinkered, one-sided, tries to beat his audience over head with political message ..."
One other important point I want to place on the record. On Sunday the 29th march 2009 the Sunday Times published the following; http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article5982263.ece under the headline; Martin McGartland police agent in IRA , disowns Fifty Dead Men Walking
"Martin McGartland disowns Fifty Dead Men Walking" However, 5 days later, on Friday 3 April 2009, Ronan Bennett published his review on Fifty Dead Men Walking (The Film) which he would have known that; (a) I was not involved nor connected with the film. (b) I had stated in public that the film was as Near to the Truth as Earth was to Pluto. (c) The Sunday Times only days before reported that; "Martin McGartland police agent in IRA , disowns Fifty Dead Men Walking." and Sunday Times also made clear; "after McGartland watched the film, he demanded, and got, several last-minute changes. For instance, a voiceover by Sir Ben Kingsley, who plays McGartland’s RUC Special Branch handler, sets the historical context and describes McGartland as “his own man”. A number of scenes were cut or voiced over, and disclaimers were inserted at the beginning and end to say that key events and personalities had been changed. .... He contends that the movie is fundamentally a lie that misrepresents his career and his motivation. He believes that if Kari Skogland, the director, had stuck closer to the account he gave in his book and in a BBC documentary, then she would have had a better film."
The Bennett Review; http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/apr/03/fifty-dead-men-walking
Friday, February 27, 2009
Jim Sturgess Says;- IRA were some of the nicest people that I ever met, says actor
Up and coming young actor Jim Sturgess — who stars in the new informer movie 50 Dead Men Walking — has spoken about the “human side” of the IRA and how some of its members were “the nicest people” he’d ever met.
The Surrey-born actor, who plays double agent Martin McGartland in the movie, told how he was introduced to former members of the IRA, who acted as “chaperones” while filming took place in Belfast.
And he claimed they were “passionate people”, who weren’t just caught up in the IRA “for violence’s sake”.
Sturgess was speaking to Empire movie magazine ahead of the general release of 50 Dead Men Walking in April. The movie will also close the ninth Jameson Belfast Film Festival.
His comments about the movie are likely to cause controversy. Hollywood actress Rose McGowan, who stars alongside Sturgess, came under fire last year when she said she would have joined the IRA, had she grown up in Belfast.
Sturgess said he didn’t know what to expect when he first came to Belfast to shoot 50 Dead men Walking.
“It was confusing for me, because I met what I believed were these thuggish terrorists from Belfast that blew places up in England — the IRA was presented to me like that — so when I met these people, and saw the human side, they were some of the nicest people I’d ever met.
“So instantly you start trying to understand what it all meant for them, that they weren’t just doing it for violence’s sake. Some of them were genuinely nice, passionate people.
“And it was a thrilling undercover ride, really. We would go into these pubs that we would never normally be allowed to hang out in, but because of who we were with we were vouched for. I would definitely not do that as an average citizen visiting Belfast. So it was exciting, becoming part of the city — or at least pretending to. Soaking it all in.”
Sturgess, who also stars in Heartless, 21 and The Other Boleyn Girl and has been hailed as “the new James McAvoy” said he wasn’t aware of the dangers facing him until filming had ended.
“We were given kind of chaperones, these people who looked after us, who were ex-members of the IRA and we basically stayed with them for two weeks before we started,” he said.
“It was kept under wraps because, in the areas we were in, he (Martin McGartland) is not a popular man. But even so, afterwards I learned there were times when I was probably in more danger than I realised. I was blissfully unaware, but I think the producers were having mini heart attacks.”
50 Dead Men Walking is based on the autobiographical book of the same name by Martin McGartland, who was recruited by the British police to infiltrate the IRA.
He was unmasked by the IRA in 1991 and narrowly escaped death when he leapt from a third floor window in a block of flats.
In 1999 the IRA tracked him down to a town in Whitley Bay and shot him six times, but failed to kill him. McGartland remains in hiding.
Story link:- http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/film-tv/news/ira-were-some-of-the-nicest-people-that-i-ever-met-says-actor-14207086.html
The Surrey-born actor, who plays double agent Martin McGartland in the movie, told how he was introduced to former members of the IRA, who acted as “chaperones” while filming took place in Belfast.
And he claimed they were “passionate people”, who weren’t just caught up in the IRA “for violence’s sake”.
Sturgess was speaking to Empire movie magazine ahead of the general release of 50 Dead Men Walking in April. The movie will also close the ninth Jameson Belfast Film Festival.
His comments about the movie are likely to cause controversy. Hollywood actress Rose McGowan, who stars alongside Sturgess, came under fire last year when she said she would have joined the IRA, had she grown up in Belfast.
Sturgess said he didn’t know what to expect when he first came to Belfast to shoot 50 Dead men Walking.
“It was confusing for me, because I met what I believed were these thuggish terrorists from Belfast that blew places up in England — the IRA was presented to me like that — so when I met these people, and saw the human side, they were some of the nicest people I’d ever met.
“So instantly you start trying to understand what it all meant for them, that they weren’t just doing it for violence’s sake. Some of them were genuinely nice, passionate people.
“And it was a thrilling undercover ride, really. We would go into these pubs that we would never normally be allowed to hang out in, but because of who we were with we were vouched for. I would definitely not do that as an average citizen visiting Belfast. So it was exciting, becoming part of the city — or at least pretending to. Soaking it all in.”
Sturgess, who also stars in Heartless, 21 and The Other Boleyn Girl and has been hailed as “the new James McAvoy” said he wasn’t aware of the dangers facing him until filming had ended.
“We were given kind of chaperones, these people who looked after us, who were ex-members of the IRA and we basically stayed with them for two weeks before we started,” he said.
“It was kept under wraps because, in the areas we were in, he (Martin McGartland) is not a popular man. But even so, afterwards I learned there were times when I was probably in more danger than I realised. I was blissfully unaware, but I think the producers were having mini heart attacks.”
50 Dead Men Walking is based on the autobiographical book of the same name by Martin McGartland, who was recruited by the British police to infiltrate the IRA.
He was unmasked by the IRA in 1991 and narrowly escaped death when he leapt from a third floor window in a block of flats.
In 1999 the IRA tracked him down to a town in Whitley Bay and shot him six times, but failed to kill him. McGartland remains in hiding.
Story link:- http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/entertainment/film-tv/news/ira-were-some-of-the-nicest-people-that-i-ever-met-says-actor-14207086.html
Tuesday, February 10, 2009
Northumbria Police Institutional Denial and Cover-Up
Institutional denial - Northumbria Police must now tell the truth
I maintain that Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson (the SIO heading my 1999 attemped murder case) and also the Chief Constable of Northumbria Police have knowingly put forward false information, misleading and even damaging information about me to both the press and also me as the victim in this case.
I also maintain that Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson and also the Northumbria Police Chief Constable have, since my 1999 attempted murder, been party to a covered-up. The cover-up of IRA involvment in my case and also hiding the truth. It can not be right that police officers and or a police force, Northumbria Police, can be involved in a cover-up of an attempted murder which was carried out by IRA terrorist. Northumbria Police, its Special Branch and Mi5 continue to hide the truth from me as the victim in this case. I maintain that Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson, Northumbria Police Chief Constable are being influenced by political pressure.
Northumbria Police have damning evidence that lays bare the role of IRA involvment in my 1999 attempted murder. However, Northumbria Police have, since June 1999, turned a blind-eye to my attempted murder by the IRA.
Northumbria Police continue to cover-up both the events, background of the 1999 IRA attack on me and also IRA involvment in my shooting. I have a right to know the truth and I also have the right to get justice in my case. I will not rest until Northumbria Police tell the truth.
My hope is that Northumbria Police will stop their cover-up, their hiding the truth of that terrible deed that was committed by the IRA on the 17th June 1999 against me.
It is very clear that there is a hierarchy of victims in Northern Ireland, justice appears to be one eyed. Northumbria police, in my view, have failed me and they continue to do so. Northumbria Police have let me, as the victim in this case, down.
Northumbria Police's investigation into my attempted murder has been flawed from day one. As the victim I have been virtually ignored by Northumbria Police. I maintain Northumbria Police have acted unlawfully when dealing with my case(s) and that they continue to act unlawfully and have breached my Human Rights.
I will be reserving all my legal rights and I am reserving the right to take legal action against both the Chief Constable of Northumbria Police and also Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson. I hold them directly responsible for the leading role they have played in what I regard a systematic cover-up by Northumbria Police.
My disgust and mistrust of Northumbria Police Chief Constable and also Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson is such that I have no confidence whatsoever in them. I have already informed them of this many times.
There must now be an independent review into my 1999 attempted murder case. The case should also be taken over by another independent third party. The events before, during and after my shooting must now be investagated properly, openly and more importantly transparently. The role of the CPS must also be looked at
I maintain that Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson (the SIO heading my 1999 attemped murder case) and also the Chief Constable of Northumbria Police have knowingly put forward false information, misleading and even damaging information about me to both the press and also me as the victim in this case.
I also maintain that Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson and also the Northumbria Police Chief Constable have, since my 1999 attempted murder, been party to a covered-up. The cover-up of IRA involvment in my case and also hiding the truth. It can not be right that police officers and or a police force, Northumbria Police, can be involved in a cover-up of an attempted murder which was carried out by IRA terrorist. Northumbria Police, its Special Branch and Mi5 continue to hide the truth from me as the victim in this case. I maintain that Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson, Northumbria Police Chief Constable are being influenced by political pressure.
Northumbria Police have damning evidence that lays bare the role of IRA involvment in my 1999 attempted murder. However, Northumbria Police have, since June 1999, turned a blind-eye to my attempted murder by the IRA.
Northumbria Police continue to cover-up both the events, background of the 1999 IRA attack on me and also IRA involvment in my shooting. I have a right to know the truth and I also have the right to get justice in my case. I will not rest until Northumbria Police tell the truth.
My hope is that Northumbria Police will stop their cover-up, their hiding the truth of that terrible deed that was committed by the IRA on the 17th June 1999 against me.
It is very clear that there is a hierarchy of victims in Northern Ireland, justice appears to be one eyed. Northumbria police, in my view, have failed me and they continue to do so. Northumbria Police have let me, as the victim in this case, down.
Northumbria Police's investigation into my attempted murder has been flawed from day one. As the victim I have been virtually ignored by Northumbria Police. I maintain Northumbria Police have acted unlawfully when dealing with my case(s) and that they continue to act unlawfully and have breached my Human Rights.
I will be reserving all my legal rights and I am reserving the right to take legal action against both the Chief Constable of Northumbria Police and also Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson. I hold them directly responsible for the leading role they have played in what I regard a systematic cover-up by Northumbria Police.
My disgust and mistrust of Northumbria Police Chief Constable and also Chief Superintendent Chris Thomson is such that I have no confidence whatsoever in them. I have already informed them of this many times.
There must now be an independent review into my 1999 attempted murder case. The case should also be taken over by another independent third party. The events before, during and after my shooting must now be investagated properly, openly and more importantly transparently. The role of the CPS must also be looked at
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